Barbie, the doll, may be 64 years old, but 鈥淏arbie,鈥� the movie, is a pandemic baby.
Greta Gerwig, the Oscar-nominated filmmaker behind 鈥淟ittle Women鈥� and 鈥淟ady Bird," started dreaming it up at a time when she wasn't sure movies would ever come back.
鈥淚 wanted to channel something that had that ache in it, but also something so wild and unruly and something that was so just spilling out over the edges of it that you want to be in a group and see it big,鈥� Gerwig told The Associated Press this week. "Because I thought we鈥檒l never make any movies again, but if they鈥檙e going to, I鈥檇 like this.鈥�
Her 鈥淏arbie,鈥� which releases in theaters on Friday, is a joyful, maximalist, deeply weird, insightful and defiantly pink confection starring Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling. She co-wrote it with her partner, Noah Baumbach, with whom she shares two sons 鈥� a toddler and a five-month-old whom they welcomed into the world while getting 鈥淏arbie鈥� out to the world.
Gerwig spoke to the AP this week about the film, the reviews, the tension between art and commerce, and the unlikely connection between 鈥淏arbie鈥� and 鈥淥ppenheimer." (Hint: .)
Remarks have been lightly edited for brevity and clarity.
AP: came out (Wednesday) and are . I鈥檓 wondering if you engage with those and how you鈥檙e feeling?
GERWIG: I do. I mean, of course. I鈥檓 not Emily Dickinson. I鈥檓 not above anything. I didn鈥檛 actually look last night because I just knew I would be too anxious. I was like go to sleep, wake up, caffeinate, get your kid to summer camp and then find out where we are. There鈥檚 a lot of reviewers that I really respect and have really liked. Film criticism matters to me as a person and also being in conversation with people who think about cinema matters. But it can feel very scary at the moment that you鈥檙e at the emotional pitch of releasing a movie to take it in.
What I tend to do is know which ones I鈥檓 going to go back to in a few weeks when I can take it in more. It鈥檚 too overwhelming at the moment. ... All my metaphors go to giving birth because I have a five-month-old but it would be like if you just give birth and then you鈥檙e like, 鈥淲hat are the reviews of the baby?鈥� But I did check the email and I鈥檓 pleased. ("Barbie") seems to have been received in the spirit that it was meant, which is exciting.
AP: I read that you called Peter Weir (鈥淭he Truman Show鈥� director) to get advice on creating an artificial world with emotional authenticity. Is there anything he told you that you can share?
GERWIG: He was so generous getting on the phone with me. I had this idea of making Barbie Land basically an interior soundstage world. That was that was the concept. But as big as soundstages are, they鈥檙e not the world. They鈥檙e going to be small. You can only hang the lights so high.
There's obviously parts of his movie that are done on a stage, but then there are other parts of it that can鈥檛 possibly be on a stage because it鈥檚 too big, but it feels like it鈥檚 on a stage, you know? Why does it feel like it鈥檚 on a stage? He explained to me they did shoot a lot of it outside in this community in Florida, but that they hung big stage lighting everywhere so it would look lit even though it was outside. And then he said it made everything like 120 degrees and that he did not suggest that. He was like I wouldn鈥檛 do that. It works but you might want to avoid making a place that鈥檚 hot, hotter.
AP: That's great that you asked.
GERWIG: In my experience, directors are so generous speaking about what they鈥檝e done and how they did it and what were the problems, because you鈥檙e only ever on your own movie AND movies are hard and they always feel completely unlikely and completely impossible but in a new way that the other one wasn鈥檛. Whatever lessons you learned on the last one, you can apply some of them, but it鈥檚 going to be a new set of issues. And other directors want to give you the knowledge that they鈥檝e gotten that they can鈥檛 use anymore because they鈥檝e already made that movie.
I had the same experience when I was making 鈥淟ittle Women.鈥� Steven Spielberg was incredibly generous with me because he had made 鈥淟incoln,鈥� which took place in the same year. He opened up all of his research, all the lighting diagrams that he did with his cinematographer. He was like here鈥檚 how we did it. He just showed me absolutely everything. Even though you鈥檙e only ever in your own in your own dream of your own movie, there鈥檚 camaraderie in the loneliness.
AP: I wondered going in if 鈥淏arbie鈥� was going to be for kids, but then about 15 minutes in I realized that this is exactly the type of movie that I wish I鈥檇 had to obsess over at age 8 instead of, like 鈥淕rease 2."
GERWIG: I鈥檝e never thought of such a sharp delineation of like what鈥檚 for kids and for adults. I just don鈥檛 see it as church and state. There鈥檚 this Demetri Martin joke that鈥檚 like, saying you like kids is like saying, 鈥淚 like people, for a little while.鈥� We all have some sense of childhood and sense of moving out of it, too, which I think is something that I probably will be forever interested in. We鈥檙e not Merlin. We only live in one direction.
AP: There鈥檚 talk of a Proust Barbie in the film, which doesn鈥檛 seem random. Could you elaborate on why you chose him?
GERWIG: In 鈥淩emembrance of Things Past," in 鈥淪wann鈥檚 Way,鈥� he is literally thrown back into his childhood through the taste of the madeleine. I thought, well, that鈥檒l be a nice Easter egg for one person.
AP: . I did not expect that to be the connection between these movies.
GERWIG: So he would have loved Proust Barbie!
AP: There鈥檚 a scene where Barbie enters the real world and is being ogled on Venice Beach and certainly it鈥檚 something a lot of women can relate to, but I wonder if that reminded you at all of your days starting out as an actor and feeling like you had to look a certain way.
GERWIG: I always felt like I was just was never quite right, that I was somehow being looked at and found lacking. That鈥檚 not exclusively available for actors, I think it鈥檚 pretty universal. But it鈥檚 heightened as an actor. I did an audition once and I was wearing overalls, I think it was for a TV show, and I got into the room and the casting director looked at me and said 鈥淲ell you must be very talented.鈥� I thought, 鈥淥h no, maybe I鈥檓 not talented enough to just be wearing overalls.鈥� Also that this is going quite badly.
AP: There鈥檚 some thematic similarities between all your films 鈥� women鈥檚 economic independence, self-actualization and the idea that emotion is not a weakness.
GERWIG: With any project, I鈥檓 completely in it. I can鈥檛 really connect it to other things I鈥檝e done. But then when I step back from it, I think, 鈥淥h, these are connected in some way.鈥� I think I鈥檓 just interested in the gleeful messiness of life and people. And I鈥檓 interested in women. I don鈥檛 know, I like them a lot. And I鈥檓 interested in women talking to each other through generations. The unwieldy nature of living life is not something that always has to be organized. It can kind of live in its own wildness.
AP: There鈥檚 comfort in the idea that it can all be true.
GERWIG: The hope of stepping into everything, was allowing it to all be equally true. I think of the character of Sasha who dismantles Barbie. I wanted everything she said to be absolutely true. And also other things that are true at the same time. That鈥檚 always the place that feels most accurate to me.
AP: There was a Guardian piece, I鈥檓 not sure if you鈥檝e read it, about I feel like this is related, that 鈥淏arbie鈥� can be a Mattel movie and also a piece of legitimate art and expression as well. And also, like your characters, you鈥檙e ensuring your economic independence while getting your ideas out to the biggest audience possible.
GERWIG: I haven鈥檛 read it. I鈥檓 sure they make good points, probably. There鈥檚 always some tension, obviously, between art that exists in the world to be seen and consumed. I joked at the beginning that I鈥檓 not Emily Dickinson, but I really am not Emily Dickinson. I鈥檓 not writing poems on the back of envelopes and creating and destroying worlds from the confines of my home and never letting anybody see it. I鈥檓 making art to be seen by people.
I am not comparing myself to this person at all, but one of the first things when I was a kid was (Sacramento鈥檚) version of Shakespeare in the Park. I got to be part of it when I was 11. I had one line but I loved it, I would go backstage and just watch everyone. It was 鈥淭he Merry Wives of Windsor,鈥� which was created because the fans liked the character of Falstaff. That鈥檚 true. He was a fan favorite in 鈥淗enry IV鈥� and, like, someone said could you write a play that鈥檚 like, a spinoff. And Shakespeare was like, you got it. And it鈥檚 amazing. And it鈥檚 also a spinoff of a character. I鈥檓 not saying I鈥檓 like Shakespeare, but I do think that sort of tension is part of what I like about all of it. We all live in this mess. Except for Emily Dickinson. But she鈥檚 the only one.
Lindsey Bahr, The Associated Press
